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hi everybody I want to tell you about

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objective and phenomenological methods

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in consciousness studies with reference

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to the spirit mediumship in Natural

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Sciences especially but also in in all

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of mainstream normal science we expect a

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lot of objective methodology and in fact

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at this conference we've seen a lot of

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great examples of it from people like

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Dean Radin

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for example controlled the laboratory

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experimental designs we sociologists and

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anthropologists use a lot of

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phenomenological methods in participant

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observation and an ethnographic

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interviewing where we're trying to get

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people to talk about their views of the

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world if we want an example in

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parapsychology we could look at pamela

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ray Heath's article in 2000 in Journal

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of parapsychology the pique zone a

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phenomenological study where she has

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people talk about their mental states

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during their psychokinetic experiences

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one of the great advantages of objective

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methodology of course is for uncovering

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mundane explanations and trying to

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eliminate those explanations to see if

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we really have an anomaly that needs to

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be explained

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for example Gary Schwartz in the

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afterlife experiments 2002 developed

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increasingly stricter protocols for

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testing spirit mediums performance in a

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laboratory setting and contrasting them

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to a control group of guessers we've got

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a lot of good objective data such as

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this in the areas of spirit mediumship

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nd ease apparitions or ghosts and

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reincarnation but there's still a debate

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as to whether we've got evidence for

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survival of consciousness after bodily

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death rather than merely some kind of

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sigh among the living psychic abilities

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among the living this is a very

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interesting debate we're stuck for a

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specific mechanism that would explain

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either house.i or survival would work

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maybe the mechanisms are the same but we

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would still like to know the source of

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the information from psy with a living

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person

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as opposed to sigh from a spirit let's

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say there are interesting theories of

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hidden orders that are consistent with

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the data look at Dean Radin for example

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entangled minds 2006 and talking about

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non-local connections and quantum

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physics okay here's an idea why don't we

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just get rid of all the objective

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methods and go to the phenomenological

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methods let's just ask spirit mediums if

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they're really talking to dead people

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and that'll settle it once for all bad

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idea

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I teach sociological research methods

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and I am a fan of multiple methodologies

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and point out there are always

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advantages and disadvantages of all the

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methods now it's time for me to tell you

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how I've used phenomenological methods

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and studying spirit mediums first of all

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as a sociologist and an anthropologist

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I see this all in terms of sociology of

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knowledge and so the first question is

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why do we even ask this question about

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whether there's survival of spirit in a

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scientific way if you look in

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traditional Chinese culture and you can

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get an example of this from my book

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Chinese ghosts in ESP 1982 which has a

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section on spirit mediums the Chinese

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perspective would ordinarily be that you

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take spirit mediumship for granted and

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the question is whether this particular

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spirit medium is bringing through your

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grandfather but in this society science

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is the dominant legitimate way of

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knowing next point is that some people

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in this society put the phenomenological

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personal experience of consciousness

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ahead of the objective scientific

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perspective skip Atwater who was a

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director of research at the Monroe

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Institute for 20 years told me in a

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recent interview that he has been

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spending a lot of time gathering

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evidence to demonstrate what he knows is

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quote obviously true unquote in other

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words he uses both objective and

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phenomenological approaches for the past

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15 years my wife Penelope and I have

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studied spirit mediums in the United

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States this is our book guided by spirit

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journey into the mind of the medium 2003

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it's

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mostly a phenomenological approach as

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you can tell from the title mines of

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medians asking them to describe their

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own process and surprise most of the 40

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mediums we interviewed and the eighty

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two mediums whose biographies I analyzed

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have been at least somewhat skeptical of

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the survival hypothesis any this is in

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the Western world right nearly all

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mediums look for confirmations that is

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also mediums often embrace a sigh

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explanation for their readings they'll

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say that was just a psychic reading that

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I did or I read that person's aura

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instead of getting the information from

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the spirit world like I was supposed to

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hear in lowly Dale now here's a nice

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example of a conformation that some

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people would say leans toward a survival

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interpretation at least because it seems

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to eliminate telepathy among the living

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the medium told the unknown sitter in a

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telephone reading your deceased Aunt

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Ruth is here yes I had an Aunt Ruth she

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wants you to have a ruby ring her ruby

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ring it's in a secret compartment at the

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back of the second drawer in her dresser

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which is now in your mother's house

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nobody in the family knew anything about

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this ring but they found it just where

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the medium said it was going to be and

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called her back the medium was my wife

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Penelope an objective scientist would

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probably object to using Penelope's

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phenomenological report especially since

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she's one of the authors of the book to

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me my knowledge of Penelope increases

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the validity of the account

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now here's another zinger by the way

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singers do not happen all the time this

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case also erodes my academic

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respectability even further I appear as

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a commentator in the TV documentary

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ghosts of Gettysburg which has been on

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national cable TV over 60 times I know

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it's been on because I get all these

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emails letters and phone calls the next

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day before that show was produced this

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was in 1995 Penelope took her first trip

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to Gettysburg and to Little Round Top on

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the Gettysburg battlefield on two

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consecutive days in early July on the

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anniversary of the Battle now Penelope

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knew little or

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nothing about the northern general

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Joshua Chamberlain at that time but she

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apparently channeled him on to those two

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days it seemed to be like an obsession

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case rather than possession because she

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could see the battlefield as it was now

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as it is now and as it was then and have

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a conversation with Chamberlain in her

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head there were a lot of evidential

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details such as she said he was trying

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to get a letter to Sarah which turned

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out to be the the name of his mother and

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also name of his sister and Penelope

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felt a pain she had difficulty walking

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because of a pain in her left hip and

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her right ankle which we found out later

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were the two places that Chamberlain had

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been injured in the Battle of Gettysburg

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now six years later in 2001 I got an

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email from a woman who had seen the TV

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show ghost of Gettysburg and she told me

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that she thought the spirit of Joshua

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Chamberlain was trying to enter her body

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and this happened about a hundred yards

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from where Penelope had had her

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experience and was also in early June

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this is the only obsession or possession

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case I've ever gotten from the hundreds

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of people who have contacted me when

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they want to tell me about their ghost

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experiences in Gettysburg and at that

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time Penelope's experience had not been

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published anywhere later on I found out

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that Chamberlain often revisited the

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battlefield on the anniversary of the

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battle when he was still alive does he

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continue to visit the battlefield on the

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anniversary of the battle after his

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death that I tell you that other women

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had that also in early July and what

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kind of explanation do you need in order

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to explain this case in terms of super

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sigh now let's take the phenomenological

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approach one step further and demolish

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what little is left of my academic

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reputation at least in sociology if not

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in SSE participatory science

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participatory science involves the

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researcher moving away from objectivity

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at a distance and jumping right into the

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study itself this is like dr. Jekyll

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taking his own potion and turning into

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mr. Hyde bad things happen to you

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in sociology and anthropology

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participant observation approaches

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participatory science but you're not

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supposed to go native

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I went native I became a spirit medium

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he was supposed to study spirit mediums

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not become one but I think this was the

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best part of my part of the study

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what better way to do a phenomenological

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study than leap whole-hog into the

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phenomenon itself I think I still have a

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pretty good dose of skepticism anyway

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because you know I really want to know

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what's going on I study this stuff

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because I have a curiosity addiction

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like everybody else in this room and so

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for me to fool myself would be like

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cheating at solitaire you know what's

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the point you know so you know I really

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do head actually the spirit mediums

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think I'm a skeptic actually now as

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described in guided by spirit lo and

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behold I've had zingers - not all the

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time but lots of them from a

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phenomenological perspective I can tell

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you there is something going on here I

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can't prove its survival even though it

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feels like it and the objective

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perspective in me says that it would be

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irresponsible science to ignore the

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evidence for at least some kind of

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scientific in the good cases of spirit

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mediumship I'm gonna give you one of

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many examples of my own experience that

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convinced me I actually give messages in

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spiritualist churches and sometimes in

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public services in Lilydale in New York

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that's a spiritualist community near

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Buffalo but I'm chicken because I always

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doubt that I can do it so I asked my

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spirit guide time for you to roll your

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eyes I asked my spirit guide to give me

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messages before I go and you know like

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why not while I'm still in the bathtub

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so I'll have something to say when I get

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there one time I got two rather detailed

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messages and wrote them down before it

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went I didn't want to like have my mind

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make this up after the fact so I had

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them written down before I went one was

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for the littlest girl who's not a baby

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and told about her skill in music and so

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on and the other one was for a guy with

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a beard and I could see him standing

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there in my mind's eye and told about

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how his relatives on the other side were

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holding signs and jumping up and down

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and telling him he didn't appreciate

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himself enough when I got to the outdoor

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service I recognized I could recognize

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the guy out of the 300 people there and

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I could easily figure out who was the

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littlest girl who wasn't a baby but then

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before I had a chance to give these

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messages another spirit medium stood up

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and gave the exact message I was going

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to give to this guy and then another

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medium stood up and gave the message to

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the little girl I was going to give

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except that she said dance instead of

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music I was pretty blown away and I

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thought about the odds of picking the

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right person out of 300 times doing it a

287
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second time like one in ninety thousand

288
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times getting a detailed message right

289
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one time times getting another detailed

290
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message almost exactly right and

291
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remember I had many zinger experiences

292
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not just this one okay so what's the

293
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status of this knowledge from the

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perspective of normal mainstream science

295
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its totally worthless I never even gave

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those messages but a researcher using a

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phenomenological approach could

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interview me and compare my subjective

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experiences to those of other mediums

300
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which of course is what we did in our

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book in conclusion I'm arguing for the

302
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usefulness of phenomenological methods

303
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but I also see that be it's great to

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combine objective and phenomenological

305
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actually Gary Schwartz does this to some

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extent you can see it in his book or he

307
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or he talks about his mediums own

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feelings in the afterlife experience

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experiments and I think this might be a

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synchronicity

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the day after I prepared this talk what

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do you know I got the latest issue of

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JSC and what do you know there's a

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phenomenological study of eight mediums

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by rock glacial and Gary Schwartz I also

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think we should keep after the search

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for physical mechanisms looking at the

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brain maybe as a quantum computer

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setting up non-local connections between

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brain and mind we need multiple

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methodologies for the mysterious and if

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you'd like to be part of my new

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sociology of science study of

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consciousness and survival

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please see my half page ad in the

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program we could at least do a short

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email interview or maybe I'll see you

328
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next year this is going to take me years

329
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I'm doing a documentary and a book

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and I love doing long projects thank you

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okay we have a bit of time for questions

332
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dick show this is great because it seems

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to me that so much of what is usually

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called consciousness can be explained as

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epiphenomena of the brain and I think

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that that the the term gets bandied

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about way way too much but this

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literally lands on things that I'm

339
00:14:05,569 --> 00:14:01,290
interested in in particular the evidence

340
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for reincarnation mediumship several

341
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other things that just strongly suggest

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there's either survival or there's

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imprinting into the environment of

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someone's consciousness or living death

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activities something like that and I

346
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think rather then explore more evidence

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with mediums how much of your activities

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are trying to figure out what the

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mechanism might be or to parse the kinds

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of information that you're getting back

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as opposed to validating just validating

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the phenomena itself and proving that

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there's something real good I live

354
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vicariously I'm a sociologist so when I

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did my study of UFOs it was actually a

356
00:14:54,409 --> 00:14:52,049
study of UFO researchers 91 UFO

357
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researchers and that's what I'm doing

358
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now in my recent study is I want to

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study the sociology of science how

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people create this knowledge about

361
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consciousness so I'm fascinated with

362
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everything I mean everything from the

363
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tubercles in them in the neurons or

364
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whatever it is but I can't do that

365
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:10,799
myself but I'm I'm gonna talk about it

366
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I'm gonna be like John Horgan and and

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you know kind of a journalist of of

368
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science by bringing all these

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perspectives together it's really

370
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amazing if fascinating and see what

371
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these different people are saying about

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consciousness so yes but I can't do it

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myself yes

374
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rosemarie Pilkington here yeah I'm so

375
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glad to see more people getting into

376
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this field which most people you know is

377
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my favorite field to be in right now I'm

378
00:15:43,479 --> 00:15:41,970
more interested in physical it's the

379
00:15:48,739 --> 00:15:43,489
same thing

380
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asking mediums who are spiritualist of

381
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course they're going to think that what

382
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they're getting is from spirit but

383
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there's really no proof of

384
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and right I don't like the term

385
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supersize okay nose is being raised by

386
00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:06,720
SIA bilities if yeah if all the things

387
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:10,320
we've been if this conference are true

388
00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:15,210
there's no limit as to time or place or

389
00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:17,580
whatever so what you are getting for

390
00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:20,520
instance when you picked up these pre

391
00:16:24,770 --> 00:16:22,590
cognitions I think they are could easily

392
00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:24,780
be what's going on I understand that

393
00:16:32,810 --> 00:16:30,870
yeah yeah

394
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:32,820
every minded me something you said of

395
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:34,890
Eileen Garrett when she was asked

396
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:36,690
because she would go into trance and

397
00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:38,160
produce he's fantastic

398
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all right things she would take on the

399
00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:43,400
personalities of people produce a

400
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:46,740
channel people whatever right and they

401
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:48,240
said do you believe that there is an

402
00:16:52,130 --> 00:16:49,710
afterlife and that you're really in

403
00:16:54,350 --> 00:16:52,140
communication and she said on Monday

404
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:54,360
Wednesday and Friday I believe yep on

405
00:17:00,020 --> 00:16:57,360
Tuesday Thursday and Saturday I don't

406
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:00,030
believe in on Sunday exactly she's one

407
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:02,310
of the 122 mediums in my data base yes

408
00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:04,410
right yeah thank you

409
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:06,990
uh yeah I'm actually I'm as interested

410
00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:08,880
in why people think certain things is

411
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:12,300
evidence for survival as I am in the

412
00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:14,100
question of survival I mean I'm

413
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:16,790
interested in everything including that

414
00:17:25,210 --> 00:17:18,810
Dave lighter here

415
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:25,220
do you use meditation as part of your

416
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:29,250
psychic ability me my my little poor

417
00:17:33,140 --> 00:17:31,650
little me spirit medium yes I do okay

418
00:17:36,170 --> 00:17:33,150
yes I do

419
00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:36,180
have you ever interrupted meditation and

420
00:17:40,910 --> 00:17:39,300
seen what the effect is it doesn't seem

421
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:40,920
to matter very much because I can go in

422
00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:43,710
just like that now now my wife who's

423
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:45,750
really a spirit medium I mean really I

424
00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:47,370
mean if I can do it anybody can do it

425
00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:50,220
really but she is very serious about

426
00:17:53,570 --> 00:17:51,750
meditating a half hour ahead of time

427
00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:53,580
before she does her a professional

428
00:17:57,260 --> 00:17:55,740
mediumship but you know one of the nice

429
00:17:59,420 --> 00:17:57,270
things about her book is we've got like

430
00:18:01,400 --> 00:17:59,430
what percentage of people meditate what

431
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:01,410
per sentence what percentage had spirit

432
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:03,330
guides who were male versus female in

433
00:18:06,930 --> 00:18:05,250
the 19th century compared to the 20th

434
00:18:08,940 --> 00:18:06,940
century nobody's got a dad of

435
00:18:10,290 --> 00:18:08,950
like that but you can look for stuff

436
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:10,300
like that and find out what people think

437
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:14,910
about those modalities thank you the

438
00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:17,590
evidence which is often considered most

439
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:21,640
convincing for the actual existence of

440
00:18:26,730 --> 00:18:23,680
these people after death sorry

441
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:26,740
Iman sputters right here right after

442
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:31,330
death is that the mediums will behave

443
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:33,610
like their personalities yes take on

444
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:35,890
some of the characters my wife okay I

445
00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:38,530
was gonna ask you in China oh especially

446
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:40,480
in China they're much more likely to go

447
00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:42,760
into deeper trance in China and mediums

448
00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:44,380
don't like to do that these days mostly

449
00:18:49,020 --> 00:18:46,990
in the United States but yeah oh yeah

450
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:49,030
and my wife would look at her arms she

451
00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:50,650
said look at this rash I'm getting and

452
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:52,180
the guy says that's the rash my

453
00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:55,360
grandfather had you got it you know and

454
00:18:59,670 --> 00:18:58,210
then but she doesn't talk like people or

455
00:19:02,490 --> 00:18:59,680
imitate other things but she'll get

456
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:02,500
feelings yeah that that's quite

457
00:19:09,630 --> 00:19:06,970
fascinating timaya um I know that

458
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:09,640
Raymond moody had people gazing in black

459
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:12,070
mirrors to see their departed once I

460
00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:13,600
wondered if you had done any work like

461
00:19:16,770 --> 00:19:15,550
we've been trying people we've tried

462
00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:16,780
that in lowly Dale there are a number of

463
00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:18,100
people who've done their own little

464
00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:19,420
psycho man themes and we haven't got